Inspecting the Seiken Densetsu 3 and Secret of Mana maps...

Discuss the Seiken Densetsu Series here.

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Dadalama
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Post by Dadalama » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:44 am

I've noticed something. It seems that the water level simply rose between the two games. The Navarre region looks like it's in the same place as the tree palace. Wendel, Charbokle forest, and the moonlight forest seem to all be under water in the middle and Tasnica seems to be where Pedan used to stand. It makes me wonder just how many thousands of years in the past SD3 actually was.

Has anyone related the sword of mana maps to these 2?

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Dr. Sheexy
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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:41 am

Secret of Mana
Image
Seiken Densetsu 3 and Heroes of Mana
ImageImage


Unfortunately I can't find a map for SwoM online, I might have to take some pictures of my guides later, and get DoM as well.


I'm really not sure if I see many similarities without really stretching what is there. Secret of Mana seems to have a lot of mountain ranges at areas that were water in SD3, so I'm not so sure about the water rising thing.


Anyways, CoM and DoM have the same maps (sorry for abysmal quality I don't have a scanner or good lighting):
Image
Sword of Mana:
Image


SwoM and CoM/DoM would be pretty much the same if it weren't for the fact that Jadd is in the middle in SwoM.

Final Fantasy Adventure is pretty much the same as SwoM.

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Kassidy
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Post by Kassidy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:49 am

It's always been hard to say whether they are all interconnected or not as far as geography is concerned, since there are such discrepancies. Timelines have also always been tentative at best. I think I posted some theories before, but my brain is too addled right now to remember...

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Post by Dadalama » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:56 am

I see what you mean about the mountains...

But it's interesting looking at the geographic history. Since the mountains debunk the rising water theory it seems large continents may have sank perhaps? All these maps (with the exception of the ever shifting city of Jadd) have so many similarities.

thanks for the maps btw!

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Dr. Sheexy
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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:08 am

Hey, no problem.

Here is a post you might find interesting:
nick912012's timeline talk- viewtopic.php?pid=11192#p11192

Like Kassidy said though, there isn't much to the series as far as timelines go.

Koichi Ishii said that all of the games are kind of retellings of the same story and they aren't related at all (kind of like the Zelda series I guess) but a few of the games are definitely linked.


The only real links mentioned in canon:

Dawn of Mana (10 years) Children of Mana (300 years) Princess of Mana

Also

Heroes of Mana (19 years) Seiken Densetsu 3


other than that there is nothing official linking the games and it's all speculation.

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Post by Dadalama » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:46 am

Sheexy wrote:Hey, no problem.

Here is a post you might find interesting:
nick912012's timeline talk- viewtopic.php?pid=11192#p11192

Like Kassidy said though, there isn't much to the series as far as timelines go.

Koichi Ishii said that all of the games are kind of retellings of the same story and they aren't related at all (kind of like the Zelda series I guess) but a few of the games are definitely linked.


The only real links mentioned in canon:

Dawn of Mana (10 years) Children of Mana (300 years) Princess of Mana

Also

Heroes of Mana (19 years) Seiken Densetsu 3


other than that there is nothing official linking the games and it's all speculation.
that's interesting. It sounds like it's a good way to avoid the "messyness" of the zelda timeline. Because certain things are only set in stone within the context of other things.

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hawklise33
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Post by hawklise33 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:45 am

those maps looked new to me except seiken densetsu 3 8P

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Post by ReasonsUnknown » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:06 pm

It seems that if you invert the SoM map it almost perfectly fits with the SD3 map. Assuming water levels have risen over the past thousands of years. Northtown and the Empire would be around Peden, cleared out the forest a bit. Southtown is just a little deeper into the former Forest of Illusion. Kakkara is in the former Navare region, flipping the map would also place the deserts around the exact same spot.

Through continental drifting the former Rolante mountains (Mandala) have moved north towards Forcena (Kingdom of Pandora region). The Beast Kingdom (Mantango) remained south of Forcena, when the Rolante region drifted north, it also moved Navare directly south of the Upperlands, the former Beast Kingdom. The Glass Desert, and Dragon Hole, *could* be the lost continent, thousands of years underwater would drastically change the environment. Bussca Island seems to have drifted south between Peden (Northtown) and Navare (Kakkara) just about where Goldtown is. Buscca volcano now being a submerged underwater volcano.

This leaves a number of small problems, inverting the map would put Altena (Ice Country) on the bottom of the map. Then there is the problem of Northtown being south of Southtown. Well assuming the world in SoM is round, which flying on Flammie proves, parts very far north, or very far south on the maps could be considered the opposite. So the former Altena would be in the far north, and you'd start by walking south from South town, but if it were to curve around the planet, then at one point you will be walking north.

It is a very far fetched theory, and it could be taken apart easily. The entire Forest of Wonder was lost :O
I haven't put the most thought into this yet, but all of this makes sense to me. I also like to think that SoM is very far in the future of SD3 so there might be a tad bit of bias rationalization here. All in all a lot of land masses have been submerged and shifted around, and it is almost hard to suggest. But some people would be surprised by what millennia of shifting plate tectonics can do.

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Post by manaman » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:46 pm

Hey ReasonsUnknown,

Your avatar and mine are twins! ;)

I like your theory, though. I mean, I guess I just figure that like our Earth now, many continents shifted and moved and so I don't see why that couldn't be the case in this game.

Peace,

manaman

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Post by ReasonsUnknown » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:38 pm

Especially with the sudden fluctuation of mana over the years, as we can tell from the games, Mana isn't exactly a stable energy source. There is no telling what possible effects this could have on the world itself. Hell, with that explanation one could link all mana games together, for now the two most similar maps in my eyes are the SD3 and SoM.

P.S. I figured who else but Randi would be a suitable avatar? Sure, there are a number of other mana characters, that I like a lot, but in most cases why mess with the OMH (Original Mana Hero). 8P

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Post by Abdul_Moti » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:59 pm

Sheexy wrote:Hey, no problem.

Here is a post you might find interesting:
nick912012's timeline talk- viewtopic.php?pid=11192#p11192

Like Kassidy said though, there isn't much to the series as far as timelines go.

Koichi Ishii said that all of the games are kind of retellings of the same story and they aren't related at all (kind of like the Zelda series I guess) but a few of the games are definitely linked.


The only real links mentioned in canon:

Dawn of Mana (10 years) Children of Mana (300 years) Princess of Mana

Also

Heroes of Mana (19 years) Seiken Densetsu 3


other than that there is nothing official linking the games and it's all speculation.
umm, a little add from me, the SwoM is, approximately 10 years after CoM, based on some words within the game and the character Stroud who might be the same character in DoM. However, it is an unfortunate that I forgot the words, I need to re-drill my brain.. Duh.

So I made a conclusion about the time line:

DDawn of Mana (10 years) Children of Mana (10years) Sword of Mana (300 years) Princess of Mana

(unknown gap)

Heroes of Mana (19 years) Seiken Densetsu 3

(unknown gap)

Secret of Mana (approx. 900 years) Legend of Mana (refer to affairs in SoM and LoM's prologue)

Well, I could be wrong about it. It's merely my opinion.

Also for comrade ReasonsUnknown, your theory sounds interesting.

One more thing, I encountered a place named Illusia mountains or something sounds alike when playing SwoM. Could this place be the Illusia isle? but as we know, in CoM it's been sealed. Perhaps it's the rest of Illusia?

Okay I'm finished my rambling that possibly would have some info. Any responses?
Last edited by Abdul_Moti on Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ReasonsUnknown » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:50 pm

I think Abdul's time line seems the most likely, should there be a linear time line.

It would be easiest to measure how far in the future one game compared to another is by how big a part Mana plays in the world. By SoM Mana is all but forgotten, any artifacts or ruins are written off as legends or children stories. Until of course you end up exploring the world and confirming the reality of it all.

Where as with Dawn of Mana the world is just overflowing with Mana as is Children, Sword, and Princess. After an unknown time gap mana is still present in the world, but people seem to rely more on technological advances rather than the power of mana, but some of these machines incorporate mana in some way.

So even if the worlds are different, and there is no real canon time line, the amount of Mana can be easily charted throughout the games.

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Kassidy
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Post by Kassidy » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:46 am

FFA/SwoM: I can't remember where we theoretically inserted it, but that's about the same framework that is generally accepted as "if it were linear, here's how to reduce universal continuum strain"

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Post by nick912012 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:01 am

umm, a little add from me, the SwoM is, approximately 10 years after CoM, based on some words within the game and the character Stroud who might be the same character in DoM. However, it is an unfortunate that I forgot the words, I need to re-drill my brain.. Duh.

I disagree with this thought, but don't think I'm trying to be a jerk or anything!


Spoilers. All that good stuff. Just SwoM, CoM, SoM, and DoM in case you were wondering.


There's just too many lost characters from CoM to SwoM if there was only a ten year gap. Moti, a huge political icon is not even mentioned in the story for SwoM. The Children themselves, who should be heroes to their land, are just completely forgotten. Dawn of Mana and Children of Mana do have a similar issue with Keldric. He makes no appearance in Children, but at least most of the cast is accounted for.

Stroud sharing his names with characters in other games doesn't exactly mean they're the same person either. While Stroud is reused, we also have Vandole in a similar boat. Vandole, in SwoM, was a dark emperor that was eventually slayed by the three Gemma Knights (not positive on this). Vandole in Secret of Mana paralleled in the fact that he was a notably deceitful ruler, but he was killed by Fanha if I recall correctly. SoM Vandole might of taken his name from a previously great ruler as that happens in real life, too. That might be the reason for Vandole. Of course, I highly doubt anybody deciding names would go this in-depth into thinking.

Yeah, there's my brain vomit on the parallel names theory I guess. =P

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Post by ReasonsUnknown » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:54 am

That is true, and I haven't put the thought of historical events into the CoM and SwoM relation. The reoccurring names could either just be semantics (as square loves those reoccurring names,) or with the very quote from the beginning of SoM, "But time flows like a river... and history repeats." It wouldn't be too crazy to say Vandole is repeatedly reincarnated as another emperor with the same ambitions and lust for mana. What are the odds?

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