In the beginning . . .

Discuss the Seiken Densetsu Series here.

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bastian
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Post by bastian » Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:41 am

The more I think about Dawn of Mana's story and its connection with the other games, the more confused I get.

Clearly Dawn of Mana is meant to represent the very beginning of the "Mana" story . . . yet it doesn't follow the guidelines set out for us in the previous games. If I remember correctly, in the older games it says that the Goddess of Mana created the Mana Sword and the Elemental Spirits and with the help of those she created the world and then turned herself into the Mana Tree . . .

Yet in Dawn of Mana, the Spirits already exist. As does the Mana Tree. And the World, for that matter . . . but we're expected to believe that Ritzia becomes the Goddess . . . ? And she doesn't turn herself into the tree so much as her spirit seems to now inhabbit it.

Or maybe I'm misremembering or misunderstanding what happened in that game.

Besides, what was all the stuff with the Masked Guru about his girlfriend becoming Anise and him having a Mana Sword?

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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:55 am

I really need to get Dawn of Mana back from a friend and play through it again.

But from what I remember Anise and the Masked Guru went through the exact same thing the hero and Ritzia are going through, except the Masked Guru couldn't go through with killing her at the end like Keldy could with Ritzia.
Then Anise's spirit was all evil and inhabited Ritzia or something and Keldy had to free them both.

Did Ritzia actually become part of the tree? I thought she was just sorta freed from being evil Anise at the end and that Keldy had to just live with what he did and protect the tree instead of going all people hater like Masked Guru did.

Again it's been like, years since I played through it and I don't have a copy on me right now so I can't double check this stuff, so straighten me out of my memory is off.


But yeah, I assume Dawn of Mana is after spirits and sword are made I guess.

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Post by bastian » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:25 am

Hm . . . see . . . the impression I got from it was that Ritzia BECAME the Mana Goddess at the end of it. But that makes no sense because clearly the Mana Goddess would have had to exist before this game.

Is there a script anywhere of the game? Probably not since it's so new-ish.

Okay, so I just watched the intro again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1yPJP6HwbE

And it says that Ritzia becomes the Mana Goddess.
Actually, it says she becomes "a goddess of Mana" . . . is that different?

Another strange distinction made is between "the world" and "the continent of Fa'Diel" . . . I'd always thought that the WORLD was called Fa'Diel . . . but supposedly this collection of "kingdoms" is "Fa'Diel" on the World.

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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:31 am

Yeah... it's sounding like this game had no idea what it wanted to be. XD


The whole girl turning into the Mana Goddess thing has always made me wonder.

FFA - Mana Tree dies, girl becomes new Goddess.
SoM - There is no more tree
SD3 - Mana Goddess
LoM - The Tree is pretty much alive
SwoM - Girl becomes new Tree and then Goddess later?


I dunno, maybe they are absorbed into some sort of greater consciousness that is the Mana Goddess? And that was there from the beginning?

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Post by bastian » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:40 am

I wonder if the Mana Tree IS the Goddess. And as it dies, a new Tree/Goddess must take its place, but (like you said) becomes part of a collective "Goddess" consciousness?

So while Ritzia may not have created the world, her spirit became part of that collective "force" that DID create the world?

Or maybe this game is trying to show us the true story behind the myth? Like maybe the world came about through big bang and all, but because of myth-telling, the Ritzia/Keldy story became the origin myth for Fa'Diel?

EDIT:
Oh! Also the Mana Sword . . . so there are multiple Mana Swords across the games? Because there are two in Dawn, right? The Masked Guru's and then Keldy's? Or is the Masked Guru's not actually a Mana Sword?

If it is, I guess what this game is trying to set up is that there is no one Mana Goddess, no one Mana Tree, and no one Mana Sword. In each era, when those three things have vanished and evil/thanatos starts creeping in . . . a new Sword/Tree/Goddess grows? Or something?
Last edited by bastian on Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:44 am

I like the Tree being the Goddess and the new one takes its place. And I guess Ritzia became part of the original Goddess.

As for the last part, with Ritzia and Keldy being the true story behind the myth, I dunno about that because then we're still wondering where the elementals came from, and why the Trees/Goddesses in the other games are so... real?
If you get what I mean.
Then you could say, well they're just all storytelling too, but I think that goes nowhere.

But yeah, first two sentences of your last post are golden. I think that's how it's supposed to be.

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Post by bastian » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:11 am

Yeah, I certainly prefer the idea that there was an actual Goddess of Mana who created the world and such. Plus, I guess it does make the distinction "A goddess of Mana" for a reason. Maybe the original Goddess was only involved in the creation of the world, but when Ritzia joins Her, she becomes the . . . "active" . . . part for her era (protecting Illusia).

So was the Masked Guru's sword and actual physical Sword of Mana? And what happened to it? I can't quite remember.

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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:15 am

They just call the Masked Guru's sword a Rapier/Saber in the art book I have. Doesn't seem to be related to the Mana Sword.

I wish I could read more Kanji because there is a ton of information in the book that isn't reflected very well in the game. As well as discussions on each of the kingdoms and different things about them. It's too out of my level though.

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Post by DeadWolf » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:23 am

In the beginning was the Mana goddess. The Mana goddess was with the Mana Tree and the Mana goddess was the mana tree.

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Post by bastian » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:30 am

Sheexy wrote:They just call the Masked Guru's sword a Rapier/Saber in the art book I have. Doesn't seem to be related to the Mana Sword.

I wish I could read more Kanji because there is a ton of information in the book that isn't reflected very well in the game. As well as discussions on each of the kingdoms and different things about them. It's too out of my level though.
Oh My Gosh!, really?! Argh! I need to know that stuff. Lame.

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Post by kirby » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:37 am

Wow! Is it me or do you seem a little lost on this subject Sheexy and Bastian?

First, the first Mana Godess only lived to create the World.
Second, in FFA/SwoM the maiden inhibits the tree to become the mana godess.
Third, DOM which in the timeline, not geographically but moving on, is after FFA/SwoM, the mana tree is dead so after Anise (who is also Medusa) inhibits Ritzia is destroyed, Ritzia becomes the 3rd Mana Godess.
Fourth, in SOM when the mana tree dissapears that is the end of Ritzia's life as the godess.
Fifth, somehow inbetween SoM and SD3 this cycle repeats its self so this is the 4th mana godess.
Sixth, the tree is still alive in LoM so it is still in the 4th cycle.
Seventh, except there is no data telling of how a maiden became the godess in the first place before FFA/SoM
Eigth, the sword that Grantz used aka the Masked Guru became corrupted by the Thanatos and became a cursed blade.

I think I have covered all the data that is left unanswered, that I know how to answer.
Last edited by kirby on Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bastian » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:43 am

While I see the sense in your timeline Kirby, I'm not sure I agree.
I'm pretty sure DoM is meant to be the first story in the series so far. The title alone would be enough to indicate that.

What makes you think that FFA/SwoM comes first?

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Post by kirby » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:57 am

bastian wrote:While I see the sense in your timeline Kirby, I'm not sure I agree.
I'm pretty sure DoM is meant to be the first story in the series so far. The title alone would be enough to indicate that.

What makes you think that FFA/SwoM comes first?
What makes me think FFA/SwoM comes first is because that in FFA/SwoM Anise aka Medusa is alive. In DoM Anise is dead and Grantz aka the Masked Guru, who I think between the 2 games somehow overshadows or inhabits Goremand's body, brings her back to life using Ritzia as a vessel for her conciousness.

If Gratz did not overshadow Goremand then nothing at all makes sense, because Goremand is a reaper Mavole, who is able not only to eat the souls of the recently deceased, but he is also able to bring back the dead to life but he first must have a vessel for the soul to inhabit for the connection to work.

If DoM is supposed to be first in the storyline the inclusion of Anise and Grantz make very little sense. It would make more sense if you think about it the way I describe it.

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Post by bastian » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:33 am

I think I understand your way of thinking now. Medusa=Anise.

I'm not sure I agree that the Medusa in SwoM is the same as in Dawn of Mana. I think that Medusa is just a form that takes over. Case in point: Hero was worried that Heroine would become a Medusa because of her bite. The name "Anise" isn't mentioned in SwoM (in fact, the only other Mana games it is mentioned are CoM and HoM).

While it is awfully coincidental the parallel between the story of the two Grantz and both their beloveds becoming Medusas at some point, there's nothing stating that this is specifically the case. Unless I missed something.

However, the more I think about it, the more I realize that this could very well be the case. Hm . . .

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Post by DeadWolf » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:22 pm

I think I would have to agree with Kirby. FFA/SwoM only references one story before it but it's nothing that would lead me to believe it's DoM.

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