Why does Square hate us?

Discuss the Seiken Densetsu Series here.

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micron08
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Post by micron08 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:15 am

Well, here comes my first *real* Seiken Densetsu discussion post. I would like to first thank you all for accepting me here and also I would like to say that I have read many posts here and compared to everyone here I am probably the least knowledgeable SD fan here.

This is mostly because I am a fan of Secret of Mana & I have recently started to play Seiken Densetsu 3. I own Sword of Mana as well as Chilldren of Mana & I don't consider these Mana games at all, which I will explain later. I've played Final Fantasy Adventure, but I've never played Legend of Mana!

My love for this series is mostly nostalgic, because I spent my summers in my room playing SoM all day, every day.

So anyway, I thought a good way to get to know everyone here would be to pose a question that I've been asking myself since I was extremely dissapointed with Sword of Mana after playing it:

Why does Square hate Seiken Densetsu fans?

They know precisely what it is about the series that fans love, basically, everything in Secret of Mana. The combat system, the huge story, the navigatable map, the music... everything. Yet, they keep making games that have one or two of these elements.

I think Sword of Mana is pretty self-explanitory. It had a very complex story, and it was pretty. And it had the word "Mana" in the title. That is about it, I didn't enjoy the game, it felt very watered down and to top it all off it was just a remake of an older game.

Children of Mana took the cool combat system (but not the magic system) from SoM. No story, no navigatable map, nothing. Just slash-slash-slash, lvl up, and so on. Everything that you had to earn in SoM is handed to you right away. It was in my opinion an average game with a "Mana" makeover.

They won't even take the time and effort to make a full game from scratch. (here's hoping for SD4, though!)

What's wrong with Square? Why do they give the Final Fantasy series so much care but pump out empty shells with the word Mana on them for us SD fans? The care given to Final Fantasy III (DS) is ridiculous. It's a wonderful remake in every aspect. Why don't they give the same treatment to SD3 ?

So in closing, this is my rant, my first post and my way to get everyone's opinion on this. I'm sure it's been discussed before, and again I haven't even played every game in the series (LoM) so I probably shouldn't even be talking.

..but anyway thanks for reading & I look forward to reading what you think! :D
Last edited by micron08 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dr. Sheexy
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Post by Dr. Sheexy » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:52 am

micron08 wrote:... and compared to everyone here I am probably the least knowledgeable SD fan here.
You haven't met Faalstar yet.
I don't even know if he counts as an SD fan. :P


You've got some good points in there.

Yeah, in the more recent games it feels like they're mixing and matching older things to try to make something that stands out (See Sword of Mana: Produce/Tempering/whatever).
And they've worked down the fighting and magic (Magic especially here) into waaaay too simple of things compared to the old games.

Anyways, seems to me like they're having an identity problem with the games lately.

SwoM - RPG with adventure elements
CoM - Adventure with RPG elements (I think DoM is the same way...)
Heroes - ???

Maybe they'll realize they should go back to SoM/SD3/LoM someday, we can only hope.

micron08
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Post by micron08 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:07 am

Sheexy wrote:Maybe they'll realize they should go back to SoM/SD3/LoM someday, we can only hope.
We can only hope aye?! :うはwwwwww:

I've been busy mostly with playing SD3 and what I have been realizing the most lately is how astonishing the amount of work they put into that game, as well as SoM. I haven't played a game in any genre within the past 10 years that gives me any idea that the company that made it really put their hearts into it.

It's astounding and it's why I don't care for the later titles one bit.

Square remade a Japan-only release of a Final Fantasy game for a newer (US/UK) generation and did it really well. They have no reason whatsoever to not give SD3 the same treatment.
Last edited by micron08 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tomnet
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Post by Tomnet » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:09 am

Heroes Of Mana will be probably a Tactical RPG. You could select your army with the help of your stylet, the attack will be in real time.

With Children Of Mana and Dawn Of Mana (Aventure/RPG) we are far to the SoM's great epoch as like an action RPG... :(

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Kassidy
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Post by Kassidy » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:15 am

The thing with Square is that Final Fantasy is their poster-girl, and the Mana series has become their experimental side of things. They've put a much greater investment into the FF series because they get more out of it. Let's face it, Final Fantasy at 68 million copies sold, and that's aside from films and soundtracks, is the 3rd biggest sales franchise in videogame history (Mario first and Pokémon second). Granted, there are more FF games (13 I think now, not counting re-releases) than SD, and I'm unable to find exact sales figures for each game and contrast.

FFIII: 1.4 million copies in Japan, which is what SD2 sold in Asia later on. FFVII sold 2.3 million copies in the first 3 days in Japan. Yet right now, SD4 is being out-sold by Brain Training 2.

Square have put all their eggs into one basket, and are pushing heavily on Final Fantasy, and I'm afraid that will be a trend that is unlikely to change much over the coming years.

Of course, the SD series was hampered by things such as the recall of pre-orders for Emergence of Excalibur, SD3 being released with bugs because of development resources being relocated to Super Mario RPG and of course not making it to the States (new dev team at Redmond? fear of recalls? who knows). Let face it, they just haven't been giving the series the loving it deserves, as and as such the boat has been going slowly downhill and because they think that there isn't the interest they're not pushing it the way they should.

Maybe with HoM being released I'll be proven wrong.. I damned well hope so, but I doubt it.

And while we're at it... How many Seiken Densetsu fan-sites and communities do you see on the web, in contrast with how many FF related ones? I mean even supposedly Square-Enix dedicated sites often only report on FF gaming news, forgetting to report on new developments on Mana games.

Another hope is the Wii... If there's enough interest on SD2 and 3 on download play (or whatever that feature's called), maybe it'll spark Square's interest...

We're a dying breed... but that won't stop us.

micron08
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Post by micron08 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:20 am

Kassidy wrote:Of course, the SD series was hampered by things such as the recall of pre-orders for Emergence of Excalibur, SD3 being released with bugs because of development resources being relocated to Super Mario RPG and of course not making it to the States (new dev team at Redmond? fear of recalls? who knows).
I didn't know all of this! That's so strange. I'm very interested in the behind the scenes stuff for these games. Wouldn't it be cool to be in the 'studio' (or however they worked) during the making of SoM?

Is there anything online that goes into any detail like this?

Anyways, it's a shame that Square has shot itself in the foot with this series. That's why it's not getting the attention and care. Like you said, they put all their eggs into the FF basket and probably are wondering why the SD series doesn't sell as well.

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Kassidy
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Post by Kassidy » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:39 am

micron08 wrote:Wouldn't it be cool to be in the 'studio' (or however they worked) during the making of SoM?
Except when they decided to watch the ending in celebration of "Ready for Release". ;)

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Post by micron08 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:53 am

Kassidy wrote:
micron08 wrote:Wouldn't it be cool to be in the 'studio' (or however they worked) during the making of SoM?
Except when they decided to watch the ending in celebration of "Ready for Release". ;)
haha! definately.

As long as I'm ranting I guess I can say that I am about half excited about Dawn of Mana, because I've been burned twice already with games featuring the word 'mana' and I am zero percent excited about Heros of Mana. It's a strategy game with the word 'mana' in the title and a few rabites.

I am willing to march right into Square HQ with a copy of SoM, slam it on the table..


... hope it doesn't shatter...
...point at it, look the boss in the eye (he probably has long grey hair and wears black leather) and say "LIKE THIS, DUMMY, LIKE THIIIIISSSSS!!!!"

and then ninja poof out of there. Who's with me?

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Marini
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Post by Marini » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:04 am

Despite the lackluster games, I'm actually grateful that Square's even releasing SD titles. Like you, micron08, miss the detail, complexity and ingenuity SoM and SD3 had to offer. Still, I appreciate the beautiful artwork in these later titles (Com and HoM more then SwoM) so I’m really just glad our series is still alive!

micron08
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Post by micron08 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:18 am

Marini wrote:Despite the lackluster games, I'm actually grateful that Square's even releasing SD titles. Like you, micron08, miss the detail, complexity and ingenuity SoM and SD3 had to offer. Still, I appreciate the beautiful artwork in these later titles (Com and HoM more then SwoM) so I’m really just glad our series is still alive!
Amen to that. I'm glad they even make them.

..but if they are going to bother they should do it right.

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Marini
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Post by Marini » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:23 am

micron08 wrote:..but if they are going to bother they should do it right.
Absolutely! I'm hoping HoM will exceed everyone's expectations *crosses fingers and toes* :D

And I wished they released on multiple platforms by I know I'm dreaming a little dream on that one! うはwwwwww

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Post by Magus_Melchior » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:41 am

Sheexy wrote:Yeah, in the more recent games it feels like they're mixing and matching older things to try to make something that stands out (See Sword of Mana: Produce/Tempering/whatever).
The Item Creation system was actually a good start that seemed to have gone not much of anywhere. It seems to me that Square lost the innovative people who brought us the SNES series of games, as the "mix-and-match" formula applies to the Final Fantasy series after 7.

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Post by Kassidy » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:34 am

I have hopes for HoM, but then again my first game on the GBA was Final Fantasy Tactics Advance (when I bought my GBA it was the only game that looked appealing and I had no idea what it was going to be like whatsoever) and I was exceedingly hooked to that game, so maybe I'm biased in that regard.

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Post by racx_00 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:36 pm

I really hate the way magic is used in Mana games now days. It's a big let down, along with all the other crappy things about recent Mana games.

Anyway I'm really looking forward to Heroes of Mana! As for Dawn of Mana, I would be looking forward to it, but it doesn't seem asthough it's gonna be getting an Australian or European release. :/
Last edited by racx_00 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Duran » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:32 pm

My belief is more of the fact that they only focus on Final Fantasy. Like Kassidy said, they have 13, but if you add everything (remakes, "side-stories," other versions), you have an astonishing 30 games!

If you've looked at their E3 2006 upcoming games lisitng, you'll find that a over half is pure Final Fantasy, with stuff like Dragon Quest, Seiken Densetsu, and Valkyrie Profile as mere side-projects that they believe will get no attention because the general American public raves about Final Fantasy.

Its not just the Seiken fans who are angry about this. Square-Enix sanctioned a Dragon Quest-community and even then, like us, they get ignored...and by a community that is VISITED by S-E reps!

Like a lot of you, Im happy that we're getting Mana games, but why in the hell do they have to make half-ass versions of these games? I think if they put as much effort in to Seiken Densetsu (and their other franchises) as they do with Final Fantasy, they could be awesome. The harsh reality, however, is the fact that S-E is too scared to put in that effort as it desperately holds onto Final Fantasy.

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