Inspecting the Seiken Densetsu 3 and Secret of Mana maps...
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Abdul_Moti
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nick912012
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ReasonsUnknown
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Well, every opinion has an argument I suppose. Despite it being confirmed that SwoM takes place not long after CoM, Nick brings up an interesting point. I suppose you can't cover everything when making Mana games. But if they really were so close together than the characters of CoM should be more present in SwoM.
Then again, SwoM came out before CoM, and the new World of Mana games tear open a large amount of plot holes in the earlier games, IMO. Mainly HoM, they did a good job showing the events of the world before SD3, but at the same time brought somethings into question. What Jessica is Hawk's aunt? Well this is awkward. The revelation that Hawk is actually Flamekahn's grandson was interesting, but makes things in SD3 a bit confusing. But yeah, I think Squeenix spent too much time developing a new story that fits in with the earlier ones, when in reality some of the new games bring some things into question from the prior games.
I think the entire World of Mana project is a disaster. From FFA/SwoM to SD2 you could make things fit together, but by attempting to help people put the pieces together Squeenix ended up making things slightly more confusing.
I realized I might not be typing with the best grammar right now, or my words might be awkward and not make much sense. I have to develop a better sleeping habit... well I could explain better later when my brain is functioning properly.
Then again, SwoM came out before CoM, and the new World of Mana games tear open a large amount of plot holes in the earlier games, IMO. Mainly HoM, they did a good job showing the events of the world before SD3, but at the same time brought somethings into question. What Jessica is Hawk's aunt? Well this is awkward. The revelation that Hawk is actually Flamekahn's grandson was interesting, but makes things in SD3 a bit confusing. But yeah, I think Squeenix spent too much time developing a new story that fits in with the earlier ones, when in reality some of the new games bring some things into question from the prior games.
I think the entire World of Mana project is a disaster. From FFA/SwoM to SD2 you could make things fit together, but by attempting to help people put the pieces together Squeenix ended up making things slightly more confusing.
I realized I might not be typing with the best grammar right now, or my words might be awkward and not make much sense. I have to develop a better sleeping habit... well I could explain better later when my brain is functioning properly.
That's too funny. 
Haha... Poor Jessica. That seems like a bit of a large oversight, so it makes me think that it had to be done on purpose. Turning Jessica into a family member could essentially remove the romantic aspect from Hawk's story completely. I know one or two (million) people that wouldn't be too upset about that.
Haha... Poor Jessica. That seems like a bit of a large oversight, so it makes me think that it had to be done on purpose. Turning Jessica into a family member could essentially remove the romantic aspect from Hawk's story completely. I know one or two (million) people that wouldn't be too upset about that.
Leaves the way open for Riesz or Angela (depending on the flavour of the month). Am I mean in not even entertaining the idea of Charlotte being a love interest?Tekka wrote:Turning Jessica into a family member could essentially remove the romantic aspect from Hawk's story completely. I know one or two (million) people that wouldn't be too upset about that.
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ReasonsUnknown
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Charlotte? Never even crossed my mind. She might be 15, but she is still the cute little girl who lives in Wendel. 
On another note, I don't often rave about romance in games, but it seemed to me that Jessica and Hawk had something more than Hawk and Riesz. Not to say there wasn't something between Riesz and Hawk, just Hawk didn't set out on this entire journey to save Riesz.
As far as pairing go, I don't really care. I won't argue either way, the only problem I have with that is that neither of them know they are related by blood. So if they were to... lets leave it at that. Haha
On another note, I don't often rave about romance in games, but it seemed to me that Jessica and Hawk had something more than Hawk and Riesz. Not to say there wasn't something between Riesz and Hawk, just Hawk didn't set out on this entire journey to save Riesz.
As far as pairing go, I don't really care. I won't argue either way, the only problem I have with that is that neither of them know they are related by blood. So if they were to... lets leave it at that. Haha
I do often rave about romance and pairings however, so here I go. 
Before you guys mentioned it, I actually had no idea HOM did that to Jessica and Hawkeye, so this is a bit of a shock to me, though I still find it funny as hell.
Hawkeye and Jessica is one of my pairings, though not my favourite obviously, it's actually down in third position. SD3, or at least the translation that we have, is very spartan when it comes to details. Especially of relationships between characters, and focuses more on the gameplay and the overall adventure, than bombarding us with love drama. I actually like it this way because it lets me fill in the gaps on my own, and in the world of the modern super structured squaresoft RPGMovie, it's a blessing to have that kind of freedom while still providing us with good characters and a story on which to let our imagination grow.
SD3 is especially dear to me because it's one of the games I tried to struggle through on an emulator before the translation patch came out. The early days of SNES emulation were some of the best times of my life, and I'm sure a lot of us here have a similar history with this game. But now I'm rambling again so onto the point...
This is the kind of retcon that I really can't abide, since as you said, Hawkeye's mission is ultimately to stop Biju and free Navarre, but Jessica is also one of his primary concerns. When Hawkeye charges in to castle Rolante and forcefully kisses Riesz, the player is left to take that in any way they wish. Whether it is an expression of some deeper feeling or just his wicked and playful personality at work. Fine, it's up to interpretation as well whether or not he loves Jessica in that way or wants to save her simply because he feels he has a duty to do so.
In the end there is nothing concrete for either camp and everyone has the potential to be happy.
But giving them a familial connection such a long time after the game was first conceived, essentially closes the door to all those who don't enjoy a good bit of incest. And to those that had invested themselves in the Jessica and Hawkeye storyline, it can be a bit of a blow, and while I'd prefer to ignore HOM completely, I can't do that because it's my belief that things like fan-fiction should be built around canon rather than completely overriding it. Sure, a little leeway is fine, but this is a big ass rock sitting in the middle of a junction you used to take every day, and now the only thing you can do is drive by it. It just seems a little unfair to do it after such a long time.
And that's all... I got there eventually.
.... <3
Before you guys mentioned it, I actually had no idea HOM did that to Jessica and Hawkeye, so this is a bit of a shock to me, though I still find it funny as hell.
Hawkeye and Jessica is one of my pairings, though not my favourite obviously, it's actually down in third position. SD3, or at least the translation that we have, is very spartan when it comes to details. Especially of relationships between characters, and focuses more on the gameplay and the overall adventure, than bombarding us with love drama. I actually like it this way because it lets me fill in the gaps on my own, and in the world of the modern super structured squaresoft RPGMovie, it's a blessing to have that kind of freedom while still providing us with good characters and a story on which to let our imagination grow.
SD3 is especially dear to me because it's one of the games I tried to struggle through on an emulator before the translation patch came out. The early days of SNES emulation were some of the best times of my life, and I'm sure a lot of us here have a similar history with this game. But now I'm rambling again so onto the point...
This is the kind of retcon that I really can't abide, since as you said, Hawkeye's mission is ultimately to stop Biju and free Navarre, but Jessica is also one of his primary concerns. When Hawkeye charges in to castle Rolante and forcefully kisses Riesz, the player is left to take that in any way they wish. Whether it is an expression of some deeper feeling or just his wicked and playful personality at work. Fine, it's up to interpretation as well whether or not he loves Jessica in that way or wants to save her simply because he feels he has a duty to do so.
In the end there is nothing concrete for either camp and everyone has the potential to be happy.
But giving them a familial connection such a long time after the game was first conceived, essentially closes the door to all those who don't enjoy a good bit of incest. And to those that had invested themselves in the Jessica and Hawkeye storyline, it can be a bit of a blow, and while I'd prefer to ignore HOM completely, I can't do that because it's my belief that things like fan-fiction should be built around canon rather than completely overriding it. Sure, a little leeway is fine, but this is a big ass rock sitting in the middle of a junction you used to take every day, and now the only thing you can do is drive by it. It just seems a little unfair to do it after such a long time.
And that's all... I got there eventually.
.... <3
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ReasonsUnknown
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Haha, I guess I made it sound like his only reasons was to save Jessica, I know there were other more pressing matters. I kind of condensed my last post because I tend to get too wordy. But you pretty much summed up what I was thinking very well.
But again, the reason I don't rave about pairing is because games like SD3 leave it completely up to one's interpretation. A little romance is good here and there, keeps things interesting. Action can only carry a story so far. However, some people like to shove how right their pairing is, as opposed to everyone who has a different opinion, and that is just ignorant. In SD3 it is made a clear that there was chemistry between Hawkeye and Jessica, as well as Hawkeye and Riesz. Whatever your fancy.
With the addition of HoM, as I stated before, turned a game that had a great story, but also left a lot up to one's interpretation, into something much more linear, and to be honest, stale.
On a side note, I have no recollection of Hawkeye kissing Riesz while storming Rolante.
I suppose it's time for another play through. Any change I get
But again, the reason I don't rave about pairing is because games like SD3 leave it completely up to one's interpretation. A little romance is good here and there, keeps things interesting. Action can only carry a story so far. However, some people like to shove how right their pairing is, as opposed to everyone who has a different opinion, and that is just ignorant. In SD3 it is made a clear that there was chemistry between Hawkeye and Jessica, as well as Hawkeye and Riesz. Whatever your fancy.
With the addition of HoM, as I stated before, turned a game that had a great story, but also left a lot up to one's interpretation, into something much more linear, and to be honest, stale.
On a side note, I have no recollection of Hawkeye kissing Riesz while storming Rolante.
I suppose it's time for another play through. Any change I get
Last edited by ReasonsUnknown on Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ReasonsUnknown
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Ahhh, I'll try that with a Kevin, Carlie, Riesz play through. Despite how many hours I've clocked into this game, I've never completed their story arc.
Unless Riesz has to be the main character, in which case that's kind of a bummer, haha. I like to keep the two characters that share an arc together, I'm kind of OCD like that, plus there is more dialog than normal between those two characters.
But I'll start a Kevin game as soon as I finish this Duran file. I'm not sure how long it will take, but I've beaten about half the god beasts so it shouldn't be that long. I'll get back to you with that if no one can confirm this by then.
Unless Riesz has to be the main character, in which case that's kind of a bummer, haha. I like to keep the two characters that share an arc together, I'm kind of OCD like that, plus there is more dialog than normal between those two characters.
But I'll start a Kevin game as soon as I finish this Duran file. I'm not sure how long it will take, but I've beaten about half the god beasts so it shouldn't be that long. I'll get back to you with that if no one can confirm this by then.
I'm pretty sure she doesn't have to be the main character, so you should be okay with Kevin and Carlie. I got the scene on my Angela, Riesz, and Carlie playthrough with Angela as the main character.
Edit: Oh, but I also made sure Riesz was my active character when I went through that section, I don't know if that has an impact on getting it though. I've only done the one playthrough since I got back into the game.
Edit: Oh, but I also made sure Riesz was my active character when I went through that section, I don't know if that has an impact on getting it though. I've only done the one playthrough since I got back into the game.
Last edited by Tekka on Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Magus_Melchior
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I was looking at the maps, and I think you're on to something. If you consider that "up" is not north and rotate and scroll the maps, they do sort of fit together, vaguely (except Jad, which changes constantly).
For instance, if you take SoM map and scroll it so that the Pure Land is in the dead center (so that it matches up with Illusia in DoM/CoM and the Isle of Oblivion in SDIII, and rotate it 45 degrees clockwise so that the Ice Continent is in the North East . . . it matches.
I think they simply rotate and shift the continents around a bit, but it is supposed to be the same basic world.
Here's SoM scrolled and rotated:
Here's SoM compared to DoM/CoM:
Look at the encircled continents on each . . . nearly the same exact shape. Imagine if the Sunken Continent in SoM were . . . well . . . less sunken? I think we would have a near identical match . . .
But what about Jad? Well, perhaps the peoples of Jad are nomadic, and whenever these cataclysms happen to Fa'Diel, the land changes and deserts disappear and reappear elsewhere over centuries and they migrate to the new desert and call it Jad?
For instance, if you take SoM map and scroll it so that the Pure Land is in the dead center (so that it matches up with Illusia in DoM/CoM and the Isle of Oblivion in SDIII, and rotate it 45 degrees clockwise so that the Ice Continent is in the North East . . . it matches.
I think they simply rotate and shift the continents around a bit, but it is supposed to be the same basic world.
Here's SoM scrolled and rotated:
Here's SoM compared to DoM/CoM:
Look at the encircled continents on each . . . nearly the same exact shape. Imagine if the Sunken Continent in SoM were . . . well . . . less sunken? I think we would have a near identical match . . .
But what about Jad? Well, perhaps the peoples of Jad are nomadic, and whenever these cataclysms happen to Fa'Diel, the land changes and deserts disappear and reappear elsewhere over centuries and they migrate to the new desert and call it Jad?
Last edited by bastian on Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.